Curse

Abedeus · Feb 17, 2010, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spookii

I sort of wonder why these people QQing about wanting to play solo...are playing a MMO.

Massive...Multiplayer(?lol)

If you want to play a solo game, go play a solo game that doesn't connect you to the internet. GuildWars is more than an interactive chat system, believe it or not. ANet's main priority is to balance the game for group play, not solo play. They just happen to understand that sometimes, getting a large group of people together is not possible. And sometimes, you don't want to play with a large group of people. Thus, we have henchies and heroes, which is quite nice imo. Actual one-man builds are possible, but they should not dominate the game. Like I said, if you want to play alone, play something else. There are much better games than GW out there for that.

BZZZT WRONG

http://www.guildwars.com/products/gu...es/default.php

Quote:

Guild Wars has some similarities to existing MMORPGs, but it also has some key differences

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Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game).

afya · Feb 17, 2010, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I just have an idea.
Put a stackable -2 shadow art attribute on SF, then it's not maintable for UWSC but enough to tank for a "balance" group.

Spookii · Feb 17, 2010, 07:44 PM // 19:44

@Abedeus

Label it what you will, it's still the same thing. A game that is largely based on cooperative play. CORPG/MMORPG. Even ANet admits that it's based off of, and can even fall under the category of, a MMORPG.

Quote:

A competitive online role-playing game (CORPG) is a type of multiplayer video game. It shares a number of similar features with massively multiplayer online role-playing games, while having significant differences such as a focus on competitive play. Examples of CORPGs are Guild Wars and Fury.

Being a CORPG has nothing to do with multiplayer, it has to do with having a large emphasis on competitiveness rather than RP.

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The games in the Guild Wars series were critically well received[5][6][7][8] and won many editor's choice awards, as well as awards such as Best Value, Best Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game (MMORPG), and Best Game.[9] Guild Wars was noted for being one of the few commercially developed games in the MMORPG genre to offer online play without subscription fees,[10] its instanced approach to MMORPG play,[11] and the quality of the graphics and play for computers with low specifications.

Let's not nitpick on silly things that make no difference, shall we?

BlueXIV · Feb 17, 2010, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by afya

I just have an idea.
Put a stackable -2 shadow art attribute on SF, then it's not maintable for UWSC but enough to tank for a "balance" group.

candy corn, golden eggs, and lunar fortunes says hi

afya · Feb 17, 2010, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueXIV

candy corn, golden eggs, and lunar fortunes says hi

i know, but still drop after certain number of cast(two or three, maybe).
or make it -3 or -4

MisterB · Feb 17, 2010, 08:31 PM // 20:31

If Shadow Form is changed, I expect a functionality change. ANet's already played with the numbers many times, including the buff to easy permaform. Who knows, though? They may play with the numbers again. Meh.

Trinity Fire Angel · Feb 17, 2010, 08:51 PM // 20:51

i hope they change the entire functionality... or will it be the new smiter's boon (nee Ether Renewal).

I always thought the name implied that you become invisible. Whilst you are invisible you cannot attack. when Shadowform ends you lose all your health except for 50hp. 5 cast time, 25e. Duration 45sec, recharge 45sec.

Hence, it allows you to be stealthy, but is still susceptible to enchant stripping AoE (Chilblains), susceptible to everything including dmg, except that you cannot be seen. You would still appear as a dot but monsters cannot see you, but you can be seen by humans in PvP via a dot on the screen.

hehe... actually its quite unusable in that form... but you get the idea. perhaps it could be a stance with 2 second aftercast. and you become entirely invisible. cannot carry items (or OP) in GVG. dunno, or could be an enchant. make you invisible for 10sec with 45sec recharge which allows you to get out of mobs when playing PVE after you spike down an enemy while the rest of your team keep fighting you can recover... dunno.

Kaleban · Feb 17, 2010, 09:01 PM // 21:01

I think a nice middle ground for many would be to change its functionality to allow for tanking but not damage.

One of two ways in my mind could work:

1. A "stealth" mode, with maintainable recharge times without consets or ele skills, and turns you invisible to monsters. Cast any other spell, defensive, offensive or any attack, and SF ends with a recharge timer similar to the Dervish Forms.

2. A maintainable enchant (-1 energy regen) that has SF's current functionality, but ends when you attack or cast a spell. Tack on the Form recharge timer.

Either way leave it maintainable, allowing you to get the first strike on an enemy as in case 1, or a "tanking" mode as in case 2. An additional negative to the tanking mode could be that SF ends if any other enchants are placed on you, preventing the Sin from having a 600/Smite mode lol.

I highly doubt that ANet will do anything too innovative or out of the box, more than likely they'll screw the nerf up too.

Spookii · Feb 17, 2010, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I think a nice middle ground for many would be to change its functionality to allow for tanking but not damage.

One of two ways in my mind could work:

1. A "stealth" mode, with maintainable recharge times without consets or ele skills, and turns you invisible to monsters. Cast any other spell, defensive, offensive or any attack, and SF ends with a recharge timer similar to the Dervish Forms.

2. A maintainable enchant (-1 energy regen) that has SF's current functionality, but ends when you attack or cast a spell. Tack on the Form recharge timer.

Either way leave it maintainable, allowing you to get the first strike on an enemy as in case 1, or a "tanking" mode as in case 2. An additional negative to the tanking mode could be that SF ends if any other enchants are placed on you, preventing the Sin from having a 600/Smite mode lol.

I highly doubt that ANet will do anything too innovative or out of the box, more than likely they'll screw the nerf up too.

Meh, I see that as a good way to get rid of the current situation but I see in my mind a whole new pot of problems that it could bring about. Shadow Form would be able to run anywhere by using one simple skill. I know it's easy to get a run just about anywhere in Tyria as it is now, but I can only see Shadow Form complicating the issue.

What about changing Shadow Form from an enchantment spell to a stance? That way it wouldn't be affected by Arcane Echo or Glyph of Swiftness. Nor would +20% enchantment weapons help. Annnnd Deadly Paradox flies out the window. I don't even think Dwarven Stability with a max title would help. The only hole that I see in the idea is if you used "On Your Knees!". That would require an A/W with knock down. So would that render the PermaSin practically useless since the majority of their damage comes from /E or /Me anyway? Thoughts? Suggestions?

MisterB · Feb 17, 2010, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spookii

What about changing Shadow Form from an enchantment spell to a stance? That way it wouldn't be affected by Arcane Echo or Glyph of Swiftness. It would still act the same as it does now (godmode, essentially), only there's no way to keep it up. Don't know if this has been suggested already or not, but it seems like an alright alternative to me.

Yes, that has been suggested. I believe it's even suggested in this thread, but there are too many Shadow Form threads. Anyway, Dwarven Stability can double stance duration, and "On Your Knees!" can recharge all stances.

Spookii · Feb 17, 2010, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

Yes, that has been suggested. I believe it's even suggested in this thread, but there are too many Shadow Form threads. Anyway, Dwarven Stability can double stance duration, and "On Your Knees!" can recharge all stances.

Just edited my post before you posted. :P

Like I said, I don't see how Dwarven Stability would help. Even at 100% recharge, that would only give a 22.5 second recharge. Would that round up to 23 or down to 22? Might they bump the recharge up to 46 seconds?

I did worry about "On Your Knees!". :/ I thought about them possibly making it so that with Shadow Form on, you could gain no adrenaline. But that seems a bit silly for an assassin skill.

JimmyNeutron · Feb 17, 2010, 11:53 PM // 23:53

1. Reduce damage of SF from 33% to 75% or 90%.
2. All non-Assassin skills are disable when SF is up.

reaper with no name · Feb 18, 2010, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Well, first off its agreed that HOW ANet handles GW1 will affect players perceptions of GW2. And you're right, if they can't do a good job with GW1, it will decrease the playerbase's faith in ANet and its future products.

The problem is, how do you define a "good job?" GW was billed as a game that emphasized skill over grind, and yet, since its inception GW has steadily become more and more grindy, to the point where the game has lost its meaning.

Consider this, WoW has a level cap of what 80 now? And it takes months and months of steady play, in a vast open world with a significantly larger playerbase. The amount of content is orders of magnitude larger than GW, and is not only better maintained, but also constantly updated and changed.

Now I'm not saying I want GW to go P2P, not only would the current system not really support such a model, the game itself is nowhere near worth a monthly fee.

But the problem lies with GW's design. A level cap that can be reached in a few steady hours of play, especially Canthan, and instant maxed PvP characters means a LOT of content can be bypassed or avoided. The ease of the game means replayability is not that high, and the lack of "jobs" for the characters (not professions like crafting, but specific roles for each character to play, such as tank, off-tank, nuker, main and secondary healers etc.) forces a rut of gameplay in which everything is balanced solely around classes that focus on healing, prot and damage. No stealth system for Sins, no real way to aggro and maintain it except by position etc.

The tl;dr version is GW was poorly conceived, riding a "free to play" wave to counter the inevitable backlash against poor maintenance and content updates. On top of that, GW has been poorly maintained, with slapdash "balance" updates and poorly thought out and implemented class additions that make the game feel bloated.

Yes you have hundreds of options and combinations, but the balance and design of the game makes it so that only a very few are ever very effective, especially given the average skill level of a random PUG.

As to the "meaningless farmfest" welcome to the world of MMORPGs. After the novelty has worn off and you've leveled a couple of characters and beaten the campaigns, thats all thats left, the search for more loot. You can PvP sure, and help guildies with their PvE, but for the player who has six or seven level 20s and a couple suits of FoW, GW doesn't offer anything NEW.

I'm sure some will mention their business model and how they're poor and suffering and like little Orphan Oliver just desire a little more gruel. Those people know nothing about business, and its safe to say that ANet's business practices and long term survival don't depend on costume sales, they're not Spencer's after all. The point is, for any persistent online game, just as in business, you must expand or fail, stagnation means death. GW has been stagnating for a while now, and as an informed consumer, my decision of whether to buy GW2 doesn't hinge on one single exploitable skill out of hundreds (there are many others btw), but instead on whether ANet can make their games FUN.

A single exploit skill doesn't remove fun, what does is a lack of replayability, lack of new and interesting content, under-developed storylines that make me want to beat my head in when I read the dialogue, etc.

ANet has the potential to not only make GW2 a great game, but to also inject new life and verve into GW1 to keep and increase the loyal playerbase. Their current path seems to be absolutely counter-intuitive though, with lackluster performance with their flagship game (series), terrible customer support, terri-bad handling of PR, swiss chesse like security and a host of other issues. All of which makes Shadow Form nearly a moot issue, and its detractors seem like infants.

Your own argument shoots itself in the foot. If farming is all that's left after the main content is done, then the only way to increase the game's lifespan is to slow down the farming. Because eventually, once you have eighteen stacks of ecto or whatever, even farming is meaningless (or rather, just as meaningless as putting another character through the game, but with far more repetition).

Balanced is more fun than not balanced. Whether you agree with this idea or not, it is a core assumption upon which ALL games of this sort are based.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mcsnake85

I dont totaly agree...
Mobs have bad build ok,they move and do action with a limited AI (in other words they are stupid) and sometimes they kill themself...BTW they still do more damage then you,i can say triple damage.
The point is not how good are you or how good is your buil etc, the point is : you dont deal damage..
without other things in play if you and mob cast the same skill MOBS always win.Because it dont have only higher HP but higher damage and defense too,so you cant kill it..thanks god we can change skill,make a good build and solo kill something but not always is enough..
A monk as you said can do something more...a sin can do something more (with only critical build too, withou sf)..but other classes?And you think that some mobs dont have aegis or other thing to defend?
I was just compare base damage of (fireball) a skill without other things...
I have to be honest, i really dont like Shadow Form, but i use it, not always but when necessary...why?because with SF you can do a lot of farm and you are stronger than a mobs..just only because they cant hit you is a great advantage...
If they update some skill and make mobs die more easy, the first thing i do is give a kick in the a** to my sin...because NO ONE NEED God mode if you can kill MOBS IN 4/5 SKILLS....and i want to say just another thing, i dont pretend to apply this in HM, but just NM.

I guarantee you that if your monk is doing his job properly, and you are bringing a decent build (that you are using properly), that you are doing FAR, FAR more damage than the monsters are. If monsters had the kind of offensive power you seem to think they do, HM would be impossible. The fact that decent players can beat monsters most of the time is proof that players are more powerful.

If you and the mobs use the same skills the same way the monsters win every time? Yeah, well if the players and monsters have the same "power level", the players will always win. That's like saying that a guy with a sword will always beat a guy with a gun in a fight if the guy with the gun has no bullets. Your hypothetical situation is taking away one guy's advantage while leaving the other guy with his. It's not a valid comparison. Mobs get extra armor and damage and whatnot, you get intelligence and good builds and prot and PvE skills. If you're using the same skills as the mobs, you're supposed to lose, because you're playing wrong. If a guy in hockey gets the puck and shoots it into his own goal, should we give his team a point? Of course not, because he RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up, and he should not be rewarded with victory for RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing up.

What I seem to be getting from your post is that you want players to be able to have as much damage (pre-enemy defenses) that monsters do, while having just as much innate defense as they do. Ok, sure, I'll agree with that, once you give the monsters intelligence equalling the average human player, good monks with prot and heals comparable to that of humans, 3 monster skills per bar that are equal in power to PvE skills, good builds, consumables, the ability to rez at a shrine, and good team synergy.

Oh wait, no, I read that wrong. You want a single player to have the power of a mob. Sure, we can do that, once each monster in said mob has the power of a mob.

Oh great, now we've got an infinite recursion going. And now Anet looks even more incompetent, because even beginner programmers know that you always program recursive stuff with an ending condition.

Lanier · Feb 18, 2010, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Ok, sure, I'll agree with that, once you give the monsters intelligence equalling the average human player, good monks with prot and heals comparable to that of humans, 3 monster skills per bar that are equal in power to PvE skills, good builds, consumables, the ability to rez at a shrine, and good team synergy.

I definitely think that this would be a good refresher to PvE that would add challenge back into it (minus the ability to rez at a shrine and use cons). Too bad that Anet isnt willing to spend practically any time anymore working on GW1. I mean when it takes 5 months to get a PvE skill update out...

Mcsnake85 · Feb 18, 2010, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

I don't see a problem with this. Ask for help, or play with heroes and learn to play better.

Dumbing the game down to "4/5 skills to kill a mob" is a terrible idea. It's already close to this thanks to some over-efficient team builds and poor game mechanics.

No thanks. More Protective Spirit on your heroes, please.

Its not that my point...i just follow meta and play the builds that work,so i know how to UW/FoW/VSF/SoO/Froggy run/Katha etc..
The problem is that i use half skill in game because other half are craps and you cant play with those skills.
GW is a team game,i know why (fowsc main team spike)...but if i want play alone i cant except with SF or sometimes SoS..Heroes help a lot (see discord) but sometimes they dont do what i want,if i bring a monk, if they are under attack they run like chickens..lol..A human monk under attack,keep heal up/prot and in meantime other players kill that mob..
Ok..then just increase damage a little...give me the opportunity to deal more damage...and what anet do all times?they nerf damage,make skill deal less damage...

Arduin · Feb 18, 2010, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mcsnake85

Its not that my point...i just follow meta and play the builds that work,so i know how to UW/FoW/VSF/SoO/Froggy run/Katha etc..
The problem is that i use half skill in game because other half are craps and you cant play with those skills.
GW is a team game,i know why (fowsc main team spike)...but if i want play alone i cant except with SF or sometimes SoS..Heroes help a lot (see discord) but sometimes they dont do what i want,if i bring a monk, if they are under attack they run like chickens..lol..A human monk under attack,keep heal up/prot and in meantime other players kill that mob..
Ok..then just increase damage a little...give me the opportunity to deal more damage...and what anet do all times?they nerf damage,make skill deal less damage...

The problem is you are only playing endgame content (as I am tasting form your posts). Those are elite and hard, content that really isn't supposed to be solo'd (at least that is what 'I' think Anet's intention is).

You are stuck in thinking that dealing more damage is going to help you play the game. Instead you get better at the game by bringing good build on you and your heroes, just like everyone else is doing, or should be doing.

On the bright side, Anet has already revealed GW2 is going to be far more solo friendly. The addition of a companion for your character should enable to get you pretty far in that game. However, I am not expecting endgame content will be possible without some other people tagging along.

Also:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mcsnake85

The problem is that i use half skill in game because other half are craps and you cant play with those skills.

No, you aren't using other skills because nothing is better or gets the job done faster than Deadly Paradox + Shadow Form. There's a difference.

vamp08 · Feb 18, 2010, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Wow, has it seriously been 3 months since the last major skill update? Is ANet or the Test Krewe doing...like...ANYTHING?

Kaleban · Feb 18, 2010, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Your own argument shoots itself in the foot. If farming is all that's left after the main content is done, then the only way to increase the game's lifespan is to slow down the farming. Because eventually, once you have eighteen stacks of ecto or whatever, even farming is meaningless (or rather, just as meaningless as putting another character through the game, but with far more repetition).

Balanced is more fun than not balanced. Whether you agree with this idea or not, it is a core assumption upon which ALL games of this sort are based.

Not really. WoW fixes the problem of farming being the endgame by constantly releasing new skins, items and more, to extend the life of the game in between expansion packs.

Slowing down the farming, a process by which ANet only seems capable of making more frustrating will only drive players to other games. If the only thing that remains to be done in a game is made so inaccessible and monotonous that people hate it, then most likely they'll go to other games.

Your "core" assumption is wrong. If it weren't then people would never have come up with speedclears in the first place, they would have thought to themselves "hey, this going fast thing is efficient, but not very fun, so I choose not to do it." Your assumption is based on a skewed perception that there is only one right way to play, YOUR way, and that other ways are wrong.

This is patently ridiculous and frankly offensive, I'm sick of others telling me how I should play a game. As I'm sure others share the same feelings. "Balanced" in GW's case means joining an ineffective PUG and wiping. That is NOT fun for me. In most other games, balanced means not just characters against each other, but also with the environment, such that any mix of characters has a similar chance to defeat an area. An 8 mesmer team probably could not hack UW in HM...

So instead of presuming to know how a game should be played, and basically proclaiming yourself GOD of GW, why not practice a little open mindedness? Every game goes through a cycle, and as anyone could tell you, all MMOs are notorious for their "farming" cycle which occurs once story content is done. To attempt to make the cycle an exercise in frustration would only serve to lessen a game's popularity, not increase it.

You MUST admit that the majority of the game is dead, from a multi human party perspective. Unless its UW/FoW or a Zaishen mission or event, every area in the game seems dead. Hardly conducive to party play. To place artificial constraints on players based on what the devs HOPE the game would be, rather than what it is is a fool's errand.

toocooltang · Feb 18, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Balance in guildwars would imply that all team builds are of about equal speed and sucess rate in completing any ingame content. There is no balance in guildwars because shadowform completes content so much faster than any other team build. If you go look at pvxwiki you'll notice almost every build out there has shadowform in it, because its just that powerful. If you aren't running shadowform then your groups are much harder and slower in comparsion.

You also imply that a SF nerf will drive people away from guildwars, my experiance has been the complete opposite actually. I have seen maybe people grind out a month of multiple doa runs, accumliate vast amounts of ingame wealth and then just leave. Once you have a stack of armbraces, a couple stacks of ecto and max cash plus all the weapons and armor you would ever want why play the game. Point is SF removes the difficulty of playing guildwars, so when you aren't challenge you get bored.

Kaleban · Feb 18, 2010, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

Balance in guildwars would imply that all team builds are of about equal speed and sucess rate in completing any ingame content. There is no balance in guildwars because shadowform completes content so much faster than any other team build. If you go look at pvxwiki you'll notice almost every build out there has shadowform in it, because its just that powerful. If you aren't running shadowform then your groups are much harder and slower in comparsion.

You do realize that it wasn't always this way right? And that no one forces you to run a SF Sin? That the same people who complain about SF being overpowered were the ones dominating DoA and high end areas with team builds that excluded half the classes in GW?

You can do UW just fine without a Sin. Will you be as fast? No. Will that lessen your fun? It shouldn't unless you define fun as maximum efficiency, which is just weird.

Quote:

You also imply that a SF nerf will drive people away from guildwars, my experiance has been the complete opposite actually. I have seen maybe people grind out a month of multiple doa runs, accumliate vast amounts of ingame wealth and then just leave. Once you have a stack of armbraces, a couple stacks of ecto and max cash plus all the weapons and armor you would ever want why play the game. Point is SF removes the difficulty of playing guildwars, so when you aren't challenge you get bored.

No I did not actually. What I SAID was that the game is dead except for very specific areas. You won't find a lot of people at Henge of Denravi for example. An SF nerf is not the problem as I SAID, what is the problem is a lack of ANet's interest in maintaining their game's fun.

SF doesn't remove the difficulty of playing GW. That's the dumbest statement I think I've heard so far. I can solo clear most of UW on my spirit spam Rit, something I could never do on a Sin. Farming by definition is not challenging, its repetitive and formulaic and nearly guaranteed. People do it to build wealth. And MMOs are designed to addict people to the gameplay, one of the reasons why WoW is so successful is the psychological impact of not letting your monthly fee "go to waste."

And I'm not sure why people keep assuming that the vast majority of GW players have stacks of armbraces and ectos. I've played the game IIRC a total of some 2500 hours across various characters, only one of which has FoW armor, and I've never seen an armbrace. Perhaps elitist jerks crying SF nerf should stop assuming that everyone feels and thinks just like them?